tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post7620284521125738736..comments2024-03-14T03:16:23.482-05:00Comments on Everyone Needs Therapy: Madofftherapydochttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-87495903415921284722008-12-29T22:43:00.000-06:002008-12-29T22:43:00.000-06:00I don't personally think madoff is manic-depressiv...I don't personally think madoff is manic-depressive. His behaviors actually correlate much better with classic narcissism: a sense of entitlement, refusal to admit he has made a mistake (until there was nowhere to go and he was out of lies), lack of empathy, belief that he is a "special" person who should not be accountable, used and discarded people, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-58051160942353070502008-12-25T10:00:00.000-06:002008-12-25T10:00:00.000-06:00Of course they got to enjoy their presents. I wasn...Of course they got to enjoy their presents. I wasn't putting any of that guilt on them, just running nonsense through my tired brain before sleep.<BR/><BR/>I think this is the best Christmas we've ever had. The economy has screwed up our budget; my biggest client hasn't been able to pay in three months, which was money I was counting on for Christmas gifts. DH's employer has laid off 2/3 of the staff; we're lucky he's still employed, and will be luckier still if the company doesn't fold.<BR/><BR/>I told the kids there would be few gifts this year, and that I couldn't afford to fill stockings or put up a tree (don't worry, they're 12, 17 and 19 -- I would never let little children down like that). They were okay with it, know our circumstances, never complained, but it broke my heart.<BR/><BR/>Well, a few weeks ago the girls pooled their money and bought a really pretty tree at a discount, then decorated it as a surprise. <BR/><BR/>Our oldest daughter gathered up some of her personal belongings, sold them online, and she and the next youngest bought stockings for everyone and filled them. They didn't want their little sister to go without. They didn't tell anyone what they were doing -- it was a sweet surprise.<BR/><BR/>We were able to scrape together enough money for the one big present each child wanted (two ipod touches and a new cell phone), plus a few other, minor gifts.<BR/><BR/>I have never been so proud of my family, the way they pulled together, thought of each other, and pitched in to make the holiday special. I'll never forget this.<BR/><BR/>So, just wanted to end on a happier note. Happy Chanukah, and best wishes to you and your family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-46397334683937590692008-12-25T06:34:00.000-06:002008-12-25T06:34:00.000-06:00Deb, one thing all of the religions have in common...Deb, one thing all of the religions have in common is that there are people who call themselves followers. Were it not for us people, they would all be so perfect, I think, every one of them.<BR/><BR/>I don't think, btw, that Mr. Madoff said he was manic. Did he? It's the doc in me to pull that out of my hat. I'm hoping he'll call me as an expert witness.<BR/><BR/>Oh, ANON. Let them enjoy their presents. It's so nice to be little like that and happy for a present. Wears thin as adults, I think.therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-67938908552872986032008-12-25T00:08:00.000-06:002008-12-25T00:08:00.000-06:00I thought the crooked Evangelical Christians were ...I thought the crooked Evangelical Christians were the anti-social types who call to mania when they get busted. <BR/><BR/>It's quite disappointing no matter the creed... or religion for that matter.Deb Markhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13972440222072809350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-14488086500803446602008-12-24T23:11:00.000-06:002008-12-24T23:11:00.000-06:00I think the saying is actually:“For the love of mo...I think the saying is actually:<BR/><BR/><I>“For the love of money is the root of all evil.”</I> Timothy, 6:10.<BR/><BR/>(Not a great Biblical scholar; I had to look up the origin of the saying.) But it reminds me of the Israelites' conflict between worshiping and maintaining faith in G-d versus worshiping Ba'al, the golden calf, in the absence of G-d's law (commandments), which they'd yet to receive.<BR/><BR/>A metaphoric interpretation emphasizes the "gold" part of "golden calf" to criticize the pursuit of wealth.<BR/><BR/>I think anyone could succumb to the temptation of placing material wealth <I>before</I> G-d, which could easily lead to moral corruption.<BR/><BR/>I don't know. It's late, I'm too tired to think. Happy Holidays. I should be in bed because the kids will be up early wanting to unwrap their own golden calves... er, reindeer (we have <I>really</I> secularized this holiday).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-67217522008967732792008-12-24T21:55:00.000-06:002008-12-24T21:55:00.000-06:00I don't know. See, if he'd only call for an appoi...I don't know. See, if he'd only call for an appointment, we could webcam it like they did with Ashley Dupres, the NY governor's escort, and we'd understand his motives. <BR/><BR/>But it could be he didn't want to face the embarrassment of handcuffs, and it could be that he's safer, ironically, in the hands of the law than out on the street.therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-39184522582917550912008-12-24T21:12:00.000-06:002008-12-24T21:12:00.000-06:00He did out himself didnt he? What does that mean?...He did out himself didnt he? What does that mean? Do schemers feel fear? Was it fear run amuck? And if so, fear of what? <BR/><BR/>MelissaMelissa Groman, LCSWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15341980298878431177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-48129703180494613822008-12-24T07:22:00.000-06:002008-12-24T07:22:00.000-06:00When my daughter was first learning about being Je...When my daughter was first learning about being Jewish was when Mel Gibson was doing his Jew-hating. She was very upset, because it was also the time she was falling in love with Shakespeare. <BR/><BR/>What she came to count on was watching <I>Sunday Morning</I> on television with me. We'd see stories about artists and writers, and she'd say, "Mom! She's <I>Jewish</I>!" and clap with excitement.<BR/><BR/>You're right. It's like the losers screw all of us. And it's interesting that there are so few of them. <BR/><BR/>Maybe if all the communities had that sort of pride of ownership, the losers would be less common among us all.fuquinayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05996168855030440765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-20746060600716788622008-12-24T05:29:00.000-06:002008-12-24T05:29:00.000-06:00That's the point, for me, too, JACK. I think I'm ...That's the point, for me, too, JACK. I think I'm angry at him, like I would be angry at someone who walked into a school with a gun. (Maybe more, because when people die I feel sad).<BR/><BR/>And what for? So he (a) keeps his head afloat or (b) gets rich or (c) has some kind of uncontrollable can't stop feature in his brain.<BR/><BR/>And all of the above didn't have to spiral out of control, he could have stopped or been stopped. <BR/><BR/>And the suicides are beginning, I understand. <BR/><BR/>Money's not the root of all evil, but boy, when you read this kind of thing, you wonder why anyone would value it this much.therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-60481140874935386962008-12-24T00:01:00.000-06:002008-12-24T00:01:00.000-06:00It just infuriates me. I know people he hurt and t...It just infuriates me. I know people he hurt and that is only the start because this is like a stone dropped into a pond. There are ripples upon ripples. It is going to devastate more lives than he can possibly imagine, and for what.Jack Steinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16625864271071630940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-30261512815770164522008-12-22T18:21:00.000-06:002008-12-22T18:21:00.000-06:00I have a friend who spells the last name the same"...I have a friend who spells the last name the same" Madoff. HE pronounces it Mad-off. Do you think Made-off was subconsciouly telling us all something?Dr. Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06340730498047128203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-79846264365599626482008-12-22T16:44:00.000-06:002008-12-22T16:44:00.000-06:00Did you see our favorite rabbi's take on this?Did you see <A HREF="http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2008/12/making-of-bernard-madoff-one-possible.html" REL="nofollow">our favorite rabbi's take on this</A>?Tzipporahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807511259582331073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-69371538866371311542008-12-22T15:52:00.000-06:002008-12-22T15:52:00.000-06:00BTW - I did not know Madoff was Jewish until today...BTW - I did not know Madoff was Jewish until today.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08237538988856751173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-74054073063296935752008-12-22T15:50:00.000-06:002008-12-22T15:50:00.000-06:00Very interesting thoughts and possibilities. It is...Very interesting thoughts and possibilities. It is a shame that this man's behavior would be associated with his religion, his cultural background. I would hope that most have moved beyond that type of judgment. I think his behavior is an indictment against our society as a whole. There were many co-conspirators involved in elevating this man to the position he attained, and it is our greed as a society that enabled him to accomplish what he did. I do not remove his responsibility, however at the end of the day he did not do this without the support of our culture. This is a mankind problem, not a Jewish problem.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08237538988856751173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-20601995455092928782008-12-22T12:57:00.000-06:002008-12-22T12:57:00.000-06:00Most of the people he scammed, as ANONYMOUS tells ...<I>Most of the people he scammed, as ANONYMOUS tells us, were Jewish. So what that means, I hate to even imagine. It might be a kick in the face to what Jews believe in, which is that there is moral law, and it would be nice if the whole world kept it.</I><BR/><BR/>Or he might simply have preyed on the people he believed would find him most trustworthy (many of the people were friends), and built upon networking connections.<BR/><BR/>It's a shame that he chose to become a criminal, because the man had an excellent reputation and CV, having once been CEO of Nasdaq. I've read that sociopaths tend to gravitate toward positions of power (politicians, CEOs, etc.), but I don't know if this is true, or if I'm simply repeating someone else's opinion.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for expanding my understanding of anti-semitism. What you've written makes a great deal of sense.<BR/><BR/>I remember feeling a bit envious, as a child, that Jewish families, and the Community in general, were so emotionally close, shared a common heritage and had many meaningful traditions and rituals. <BR/><BR/>My own family is fairly mongrelized, widely distributed, believes in virtually nothing, is extremely rigid and stand-offish, and has no traditions whatsoever. I suppose that's not the case for all gentiles. <BR/><BR/>(NB: I have stopped telling people I was raised by wolves.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-7970941239161999362008-12-22T12:12:00.000-06:002008-12-22T12:12:00.000-06:00LINROB, the problem is that you don't get caught u...LINROB, the problem is that you don't get caught up a ponzi scheme; it's a scam from the get go. He knew what he was doing, admitted it. So I don't see Madoff caught up in anything. It seems he initiated everything and wasn't a RobinHood, not unless he thought of himself as the poor.<BR/><BR/>Most of the people he scammed, as ANONYMOUS tells us, were Jewish. So what that means, I hate to even imagine. It might be a kick in the face to what Jews believe in, which is that there is moral law, and it would be nice if the whole world kept it.<BR/><BR/>I think you're right, too, about anti-Semitism, but there's more, for sure. It is probably about the separateness of the Jewish people, being DIFFERENT, dressing different, celebrating a different Sabbath, different holidays, going to different schools, NOT believing in a savior other than the father of all mankind. <BR/><BR/>People HATE different. Probably it's some kind of teleologic thing, survival of the species, but it is very deep in our collective memories or our DNA.<BR/><BR/>Many Jewish people, for example, still won't buy a Mercedes. But now we know it's because they can't afford one.therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-56820274208871427252008-12-22T11:57:00.000-06:002008-12-22T11:57:00.000-06:00I think that Mr. Madoff had incredible arrogance. ...I think that Mr. Madoff had incredible arrogance. I don't know whether he is mentally ill. But I suspect that he thought that he was above reproach or perhaps "owed" this money. It's a failure of thinking. There are some people who will take and take just because they can.Sydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05642843245634635843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-70309594391259133932008-12-22T11:33:00.000-06:002008-12-22T11:33:00.000-06:00I thought the amount was 50 billion, which no one ...I thought the amount was 50 billion, which no one could possibly <I>spend</I> in the 2-3 years this scheme was going on, particularly without alerting the IRS. My guess is the money is squirreled away in foreign bank accounts so it can't be traced (or only with great difficulty).<BR/><BR/>What bothered me most about this guy's behavior was that he knowingly stole from charities, mostly Jewish foundations, and from close personal friends who had trusted him for years.<BR/><BR/>Imo, the man is a sociopath, and a greedy one at that. How can you steal money from a charity, knowing its purpose is to help those without means, and not feel guilty? Sociopath. Plus, he covered his tracks too well for this to be anything but a deliberate undertaking.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I knew he was Jewish, but I don't think that has anything to do with his behavior, nor is it really a relevant fact, other than to counter claims of anti-semitism because most of his victims were also Jewish.<BR/><BR/>I grew up in a predominantly Jewish community (which sucked on the weekends because many of my friends had a different Sabbath, and therefore we didn't have much free time together) and have never understood anti-semitism. I know it still exists; I just don't understand <I>why.</I> The closest I can come to an explanation is that others may be jealous of success, since education and hard work are so highly valued within the community. I don't know.<BR/><BR/>Do you understand it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-37578222171734083092008-12-22T10:26:00.000-06:002008-12-22T10:26:00.000-06:00I am glad, Shlomo, you posted. As I was reading, ...I am glad, Shlomo, you posted. As I was reading, I was preparing to post a similar comment. <BR/><BR/>I read that many, many of those who lost lots are non-profit organizations that provide services to people in need.<BR/><BR/>If his sole motivation was greed from the go, I do not believe his client list would read like a philanthropic venture. But it does.<BR/><BR/>I think it is plausible...even likely...that it bagan as a letitimate and very successful venture. <BR/><BR/>Could his motivation have been not wanting to let anyone down? Or maybe the adulation for doing so good for so many in need? <BR/><BR/>I recognize it does not absolve him of wrongdoing..and he did very, very wrong that hurt many more in ways that are yet unknown...beyond the catastrophic financial losses.<BR/><BR/>Is there a diagnosis for someone who got caught up in it rather than planned and executed it?<BR/><BR/>Just curious.cordeliadarwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13370483145632040897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-66308306234801044322008-12-22T09:27:00.000-06:002008-12-22T09:27:00.000-06:00I think once you're in deep enough, you just keep ...I think once you're in deep enough, you just keep digging, hoping without hope that you can somehow get out...<BR/><BR/>I should note that I got the basic scenario I sketched from http://rechovot.blogspot.com/2008/12/making-of-bernard-madoff-one-possible.html, so I can't take credit for the original insight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-18167039672091097582008-12-22T09:17:00.000-06:002008-12-22T09:17:00.000-06:00Brilliant Shlomo, and I agree. I just have trouble...Brilliant Shlomo, and I agree. <BR/><BR/>I just have trouble with that 50 million. How does 50 million sneak up on a person?therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-40769490601522566482008-12-22T09:03:00.000-06:002008-12-22T09:03:00.000-06:00Well-reasoned, interesting, and insightful, as usu...Well-reasoned, interesting, and insightful, as usual. Thank you.<BR/><BR/>However, this post gives me an opening to muse about the tendency in our society to draw an equivalence between psychopathology and "bad" behavior. If one acts in an "evil" fashion, one must be ipso facto psychologically disturbed. I don't think that this is always (or even usually) the case; indeed, I think that this view tends to exculpate criminal behavior rather too much, by minimizing the important role of free will. More to the point, I think that by "medicalizing" bad behavior, we seek to treat criminals as clearly "other", and so to deny that "there, but for the grace of God, go I". But we must, I believe, remember that (in most cases) these criminals are also human beings like us, and that we too may have within us the capacity for terrible acts.<BR/><BR/>(NB: I do not mean to attribute the strong position of "criminals are ipso facto mentally ill" to Therapydoc; but I do believe that there is a strain of such thought in the zeitgeist.)<BR/><BR/>In the case of Madoff, may I suggest another scenario? This is one in which he starts his fund legitimately, and it does well for a while, but then starts to see some losses. In order to maintain his good record, he "temporarily" dips into the clients' funds to fake a small gain instead of a loss for one month, then a second, then a third, figuring that he'll be able soon to pay the funds back from future gains. And maybe he can at first. So this is just petty larceny that in the end harms no one. But this behavior becomes a habit and as his reputation for steady gains increases, the pressure for ensuring no losses also increases, so he does this again and again. Soon, he finds that he can't easily replace the missing funds, and before long, he is dug in so deep that he needs to keep seeking new clients to keep afloat; he can't dig himself out, and has to just frantically keep the money moving to survive. At this point, he has no thought to his clients simply because he is concentrating on not sinking. In the end, he can't keep it going, of course, and so it all comes crashing down.<BR/><BR/>This scenario does <B>not</B> remove any responsibility from the perpetrator, though. What it does, however, is make clear the tremendous importance of paying close attention to moral behavior in the <B>details</B> of life, not just in the "big picture". It is all too easy to get sucked into some pattern of problematic behavior for all-too-normal reasons, and then the pattern grows until it becomes an all-encompassing malignancy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-44254043358847749382008-12-21T19:44:00.000-06:002008-12-21T19:44:00.000-06:00I read the article and it's terrific, I'm recommen...I read the article and it's terrific, I'm recommending it to all of you. We used to talk theory, pontificate about why some people "go bad."<BR/><BR/>Here was the favorite, and Shrink Rap tells it over like so:<BR/><BR/><EM>In 1837 an English psychiatrist named James Pritchard wrote a book entitled Treatise on Insanity in which he described people who lacked the ability to form attachments to others and who were unable to experience normal human affection or emotions. These individuals had little regard for the feelings or rights of others, however they didn't have the hallucinations or impaired cognitive functioning that was seen in other psychiatric disorders.</EM><BR/><BR/>The profession used to blame lack of empathy. As Shrink Rap says, It's a beginning.therapydochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05088184676439578876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-19294006588127384202008-12-21T19:28:00.000-06:002008-12-21T19:28:00.000-06:00There was an interesting post on the subject of di...There was an interesting post on the subject of diagnoses and sociopaths this week over at Shrink Rap... it really fits in well with this discussion: http://psychiatrist-blog.blogspot.com/2008/12/who-is-criminal.html<BR/><BR/>-the blogger formerly known as rosysunsetJackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17472517428832152273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27072566.post-71408091541978602272008-12-21T18:02:00.000-06:002008-12-21T18:02:00.000-06:00"I love the story, and forgive me if I've told it ..."I love the story, and forgive me if I've told it before, about the rabbi out taking a walk. A thief grabs his wallet and runs off. The rabbi runs after him shouting, "Take it, take it! Take the money! It's yours!" The rabbi assumes the guy needs the money more than he does. He's giving it to him so the thief doesn't have to suffer the sin."<BR/><BR/>Hadn't heard that one before. Fantastic story! I love it! Probably because I feel the same way -- if someone needs something of mine that badly, I'd rather give it than put them in the position of having to steal it.<BR/><BR/>Another great post TherapyDoc.<BR/><BR/>Happy holidays to you and your family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com